Byzantine Blog

This article together with impressive number of links makes compelling reading. It's good to see that the matter is not allowed to fade into the mists of forgotten events that would free those implicated from any responsibility. Everything points that something is indeed rotten in the state of Finland and it resembles the stench emanating from many other western governments and corrupt institutions.

Pretenders of peace have created a horrible and dangerous mess, where the fate of many is in the hands of those corrupt and unethical individuals.

I doubt anything else will be made the least bit public over this.

Thankfully not all western citizens are blind and idiots to say the least to the sh*t coming from Pro-independence supporters mouths.

This is a very good article I found (The inconvenient Serbs) not too old April 17, 2007

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/ID17Ak01.html

- Pozdrav

Perhaps we all know, and if we don’t we should that there is something very irregular about Martti Ahtisaari the former Finish president’s involvement in many aspects of the dissolution of Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia – SFRJ, too much involvement to be dismissed as a coincidence, especially when once considers that most his involvement led to unfavorable outcome for the ethnic Serbs. So why wonder now that he is still involved directly in finishing of the job of removing Kosovo from Serbia, continuation of the premeditated process. Thus the obvious questions must be raised, is Martti Ahtisaari being bribed by ethnic Albanians and the Albanian mafia that is backing the ethnic Albanians in Kosovo? That is the logical question everyone is asking, see Of Bribes and Allegations and Inquiry sought in Ahtisaari bribery allegations.

So let’s get this straight Kosovo born ethnic Albanian Behgjet Pacolli (not on the Forbes list of richest people in the world) is using his financial empire, which is allegedly worth up to two billion dollars, to gain political power he established Kosovo Albanian lobbying group in the United States, The Alliance for a New Kosovo. I do not see anything wrong with anyone using his fortune to help his people, but at a cost of the host countries people, there is something very wrong with that.

Well I believe Serbia has wealthy citizens too, Miroslav Miskovic (is 891’st on the Forbes list of richest people in the world), Philip Zepter, and many others but I do not see them giving their money away (at least it is not visible) for Serbia or Serbian causes. If it requires for Serbs to fight fire with fire then Serbs too can setup a lobbying group to buy corrupt U.S. senators, congressmen, it is not rocket science.

Doing a little bit of research on Yugoslavia one will find that CIA activities in Croatia began in 1974 (I am still looking for an article to back this). So when Tito died in 1980, almost every ethnic group in SFRJ and Diaspora was already organized and prepared to take advantage of Yugoslavia’s demise, especially Croatians the only ethnic group that was not prepared were, you guess it the Serbs, the Serbs were divided religiously and politically not only in Diaspora but in Serbia as well. During the various stages of dissolution of Yugoslavia (SFRJ 1943-1992), (FRJ 1992-2003), Serbia and Montenegro (2003-2006) and finally there is only Serbia left as of 2006, and there is a possibility of losing Kosovo and perhaps even Vojvodina, unfortunately the principle of divide and conquer worked quite well against a true multi-ethnic country of Yugoslavia. The civil wars that took place during those periods of time, which I call the war of secessions, Serbians in Diaspora as well as in Serbia were not organized at all for eventual demise of Yugoslavia that can be seen from the results on the ground today.

For a really good analysis about the destruction of Yugoslavia see: The Rational Destruction of Yugoslavia and Diana Johnstone on the Balkan Wars, and Seeing Yugoslavia through a dark glass.

On the other hand, the Croatian’s Diaspora were planning their independence even after they knew that they were going to lose the war, thus from the end of WWII, and while Ustasha leadership was fleeing Yugoslavia with the help of the Vatican via the ratline into the U.S. and South America, the money was being collected at that time and prepared for the next chance to achieve independence for Croatia. That chance came at the inevitable death of Tito, and that was the signal for all other ethnic groups to take action against unorganized Serbs and win their independence as well as destroy Yugoslavia, SFRJ.

See Avro Manhattan: The Vatican's Holocaust A history starting in 1917 of forced conversions, massacre, terror, extermination camps by the Hapsburgs and the Vatican in Yugoslavia.

The biggest ethnic group from former Yugoslavia, which settled all over the world including the U.S., is the Serbs. So any criticism directed at Serbians in Diaspora is justified; especially Serbian Unity Congress – SUC, for not doing anything during the war of secessions when Serbia as well as Serbian people needed their help the most. After everything was lost SUC finally took positive steps to try and stop anti-Serbian propaganda, and the attack on Serbia, it established Serbian Congressional Caucus, and I believe it was instrumental in establishing the American Council for Kosovo. I guess batter late then never. More should have been done during early 1990’s, and more should be done today and more has to be done tomorrow, for if the still tribal ethnic Albanians can organize and manage to fool the world and get U.S. to side with its agenda of “Greater Albanian” then Serbia can organize and should at least be able to keep the territory it now has.

The morale of this story is you can use all your assets at your disposal to defend you honor your territory without breaking any laws, or at the expense of other ethnic groups, justice will always be on the side of the honest and honorable people. Those that break the laws and profit at the expense of other ethnic groups will only have temporary gains.

That is the reason I can honestly say that I am proud to be Serbian, why do I feel that way, my religion, my upbringing, my cultural identity, I feel that Serbs always stood for just causes and never gain at the expense of others and last but not least perhaps it was the outcome of Kosovo battle, that all Serbs such high self-esteem.

SUC had no part in establishing/funding the American Council for Kosovo. It was an initiative we should thank Bishop Artemije (of Raska-Prizren Diocese) for, and financed by the Kosovo-Metohija Serbs. Nowadays it survives thanks to mainly James Jatras' kindheartedness and tenacity, and needs to be supported through donations.

I agree that "the still tribal ethnic Albanians" were zealously active in lobbying and bribing the influential congressmen in US, but I'm not convinced that their success sprung from that effort. There was a window of opportunity for the American interests to expand East and Balkans were the first stop to be secured. All the divisive forces within former Yugoslavia were utilized and nurtured to serve America's interests and it was too easy to make it look like they were exceptionally successful with their activity to gain independence.

In reality, their efforts would have had no effect at all had it not been in America's interests to be that way. Any moves made by the Serbs both in Serbia and abroad were negated because the Serbian cause did not suit the US plans. The power of the Media was as destructive as the military aggression and the Serbs were simply outnumbered and outgunned with no ally to lean on.

Had it not been for the US and the West European governments meddling, encouragement and indeed financing no dissident group would have had the means nor the courage to undertake any serious attempt at secession from the Yugoslav Federation. Preparations in the US for dismantling Yugoslavia have been in full swing well before Josip Broz's death and Marshal Tito himself actually paved the way for the bloodbath to take place after he has departed.

Bozidar: I agree that "the still tribal ethnic Albanians" were zealously active in lobbying and bribing the influential congressmen in US, but I'm not convinced that their success sprung from that effort. There was a window of opportunity for the American interests to expand East and Balkans were the first stop to be secured. All the divisive forces within former Yugoslavia were utilized and nurtured to serve America's interests and it was too easy to make it look like they were exceptionally successful with their activity to gain independence.

What I recognize about the still tribal ethnic Albanians is their ability to organize, (after all they are replacing the Italian mafia), and they buy expertise when they need it, in the area where they have no expertise in. The reason for ethnic Albanian success lies in the fact that they are still tribal, and are run by tribal elders. I am also not totally convinced of their success as you have suggested, but one must recognize the reality on the ground, the results. You are also dismissing the role of the influential congressmen in U.S. like Bob Dole, and Joe Dioguardi, Joe Biden, Joe Lieberman, John McCain, etc., their suggestion to hire the US based public relations firm of Rudder Finn that was used by Croatians, Bosnian Muslims and Kosovo Albanians at just the right time, for optimal effect turn out to be the huge difference in being painted as the new Nazi’s of Europe, as far as I am concerned that was the decisive blow that Serbia will not overcome easily in the near future, the minds have been won over already.

The lobbying and bribing of influential U.S. congressman lead to total embargo against Yugoslavia (FRJ), thus Yugoslavia was not able to hire PR firms in the U.S. and defend against lies being perpetrated by Ruder Finn.

See Ruder Finn's work for Croatia

Creating a Public Opinion
“On 7 July 1991, under the auspices of the European Community, the leaders of Slovenia and Croatia agreed (in the so-called "Brioni Declaration") to suspend their declarations of independence for three months to allow negotiations toward a peaceful solution. However, during this supposed cooling-off period a major unilateral step was taken in the most decisive of all wars in Yugoslavia: the public relations war. On 12 August 1991, the Croatian government hired the American public relations firm Ruder Finn Global Public Affairs to "develop and carry out strategies and tactics for communication with members of the U.S. House of Representatives and the Senate as well as with officials of the U.S. government including the State Department, the National Security Council and other relevant agencies and departments of the U.S. government as well as with American and international news media". On 12 November 1991, Ruder Finn's contract was renewed to include lobbying in relation to diplomatic recognition, sanctions, and embargoes, as well as briefings for officials of the first Bush administration and preparation of special background material, press releases, both reactive and proactive articles and letters to the editors to appear in major newspapers, briefings for journalists, columnists, and commentators. In January and February 1992, Ruder Finn organized trips to Croatia for U.S. Congressmen. The United States recognized Croatia as an independent state on 7 April 1992.”[…]

See Labeling the Serbs as Nazis - The Role of Ruder Finn, a US-Public Relation Firm

[…]“From the start, foreign reporters were better treated in Zagreb and Ljubljana , whose secessionist leaders understood the prime importance of media images in gaining international support, than in Belgrade. The Albanian secessionists in Kosovo or Kosovars, (10) the Croatian secessionists and the Bosnian Muslims hired an American public relations firm, Ruder Finn, to advance their causes by demonizing the Serbs. (11) Ruder Finn deliberately targeted certain publics, notably the American Jewish community, with a campaign likening Serbs to Nazis. Feminists were also clearly targeted by the Croatian nationalist campaign directed out of Zagreb to brand Serbs as rapists.”[…]

Bozidar: In reality, their efforts would have had no effect at all had it not been in America's interests to be that way. Any moves made by the Serbs both in Serbia and abroad were negated because the Serbian cause did not suit the US plans. The power of the Media was as destructive as the military aggression and the Serbs were simply outnumbered and outgunned with no ally to lean on.

I disagree; their efforts obviously had an effect on public opinion, via PR firm regardless that it was in U.S. interest to see Yugoslavia dissolve for what ever reason (for the sake of argument I will ignore that reason for time being). The military aggression would have never taken place if the public opinion was on Serbia’s side, of all the ethnic groups in the former Yugoslavia Serbians were the only ethnic group that fought with the allies in two World Wars. Actually Bozidar inadvertently you proved my point; you are an example of a Serbian that does not believe in the effectiveness of the media war just like the Milosevic regime at that time. You admit it your self that the “power of the Media was as destructive as the military aggression and the Serbs were simply outnumbered and outgunned with no ally to lean on”, the power of media lead to the military action. The rest is history, if the right minds would have been won over in the early years of the conflict, then Serbia would not have been outnumbered, and the outgunned issue would never have been raised.

Once again if Serbia and Serbians organized and prepared for Tito’s eventual death, and had started the media war earlier on, and if Serbia would have gotten Israel and the biggest Jewish organizations in the U.S. and the rest of the world on its side, most of the military actions would have been dead in their tracks, or at least would have amounted to verbal condemnation the kind used against Israel during the Lebanon offensive, recently.

Bozidar: Had it not been for the US and the West European governments meddling, encouragement and indeed financing no dissident group would have had the means nor the courage to undertake any serious attempt at secession from the Yugoslav Federation. Preparations in the US for dismantling Yugoslavia have been in full swing well before Josip Broz's death and Marshal Tito himself actually paved the way for the bloodbath to take place after he has departed.

I agree the meddling by the U.S. and Europeans didn’t help Serbia’s cause, but the reason for this was Serbia already lost the war of public opinion; this made it easier for the U.S. and Europeans to look for excuses (human rights, the right to self determination, etc.) to meddle into Serbia’s affairs.

If Serbian intellectual leadership as well as political leadership in the Tito’s regime, organized a strategy for Tito’s eventual death, and if those leaders at time of Tito’s death would have simply jailed all the secessionist leaders (and all were know at that time), secured all borders, and stopped foreign diplomats from traveling throughout Yugoslavia that alone would have prevented the appearance of weakness on a military level. Yes, IMF loans made Yugoslavia’s economy a shambles and ripe for the taking, but the military of Yugoslavia was allegedly the 4th largest military force in Europe at that time.

The only reason the U.S. and the west took action against Yugoslavia is the inability to organize quickly, they had ten years to organize, and they failed. By 1991-92 most secessionist leaders were in power and in full control over their respective republics, and ready too declare independence.

The ability of Albanians to organize is over emphasized here as is the effectiveness of their actions. I stand by my earlier statement that they were only successful because their mentors in the West supported them in their quest. I'm not dismissing the role of influential congressmen, all I'm saying is that all the participants danced to the tune of Uncle Sam and the roles fitted in just nicely. Comparison of the Albanian and the Italian mafia is irrelevant in the overall scheme and is a very different topic. You mention the Croatians and Bosnians alongside the Albanians who incidentally were actors in the same play and the same script, they all had the immense sponsorship from the US government. I'm well aware of the Ruder Finn role but I disagree that they were instrumental in bringing the embargo on Yugoslavia they just, ostensibly only, provided the reasons to the US government to impose, demonize and destroy the sovereign country that was already earmarked for the cull by the power brokers.

I'm a little surprised that you have dwelled so much on the material that was in fact the frontline propaganda script fed to the public at large. Surely you are aware of the pressure being applied on the journalists to tow the line or else. The fact that the West had to utilize all its resources against a small country is a proof that they feared their lies may not bear fruit.

To assume that the military aggression would not have taken place if the public opinion was on Serbia's side is same as saying the Wolfe would not have eaten the lamb had it not been drinking downstream. Let us not delude ourselves, the public in the US were fed what the government wanted them to think and not the truth. How could there have been any public opposition if they new nothing about the real happenings in former Yugoslavia. You are mistaken for thinking that I don't believe in the effectiveness of the media, my point was that a government controlled media is just a tool of aggression and is far removed from its ethics of fair reporting. Serbs had no chance of penetrating the American public opinion nor winning the right minds of the West, there were none in the seats of power to be won since the assassination of President Kennedy.

Apart from enjoying the educated discussion, I must say I agree with Bozidar: we had no chance whatsoever, from before the get-go.

Reading articles by Julia Gorin, Ed Herman and other well informed Balkan observers, I get surprised anew every time I see the sources they are quoting from the 1980s and all the way up to 1991-1992. The New York Times, Washington Times, Post and a number of British mainstream media sources seemed to have known perfectly well what exactly is going on in the region; they were warning of Albanian irredentism, various separatist tendencies, dangerous sparks flying in Croatia, Bosnia, Kosovo province, foretelling the bloody mess with remarkable precision.

This was not only before Rudder Fin, but mainly before the US policy to do away with Yugoslavia and blame Serbia for each republic/region seceding was set. The main theme behind supporting and helping each chapter of dismemberment of Yugoslavia was that nobody wants to be with Serbia and rightfully so, since Serbia is a dictatorial aggressor; so instead of mourning violent, brutal death of a state, each secession was welcomed and greeted as a form of "liberation", always reaffirming the essential message: the breakup of Yugoslavia is a good thing, the good guys are getting finally free of "Serbian oppression".

In other words, I think in this case media followed the state policy dictate, not the other way around. Therefore, the reports that were challenging that policy were filtered out and discarded before reaching the public, and only the ones that justified it further could have seen the light of the day. Rudder Fin and other Croat/Muslim lobbying groups only made sure that the latter ones were supplied in abundance.

It is a whole other question if the Serbs could have done more and in what way.

First I am not here to argue for the sake of arguing; that is not my intent, minds were made up, well before I posted anything on this subject, I am sharing but also learning, no one has an exclusive monopoly on truth.

Bizidar: “…ability of Albanians to organize is over emphasized here as is the effectiveness of their actions…”

I disagree, all three ethnic groups were very effective, they all achieved their goals; I think that says it all, while the onslaught against Serbia continues…the question to ask now are Sandjak and Vojvodina the next targets, time will tell.

Yes, the U.S. had a National Security Decision Directive to target Yugoslavia, I am well aware of that, but Yugoslavia had the 4th largest army in Europe, the rump of Yugoslavia Serbia and Montenegro defended formidably against NATO and U.S. for 78 days. See the results of organized resistance NATO's Secret Losses.

"A military alliance of 19 nations and 780 million people; with over half of the world's gross economic product, possessing two-thirds of the global military power, ganged up on a tiny nation of 10 million. For 78 days, NATO terrorized the people of Serbia, dropping 23,000 bombs and missiles on them in 36,000 sorties. Yet the Serbs remained unbowed and uncowed. This is not hearsay. I saw their defiance with my own eyes during the six days I had spent under NATO's bombardment."

Bozidar: “…you have dwelled so much on the material that was in fact the frontline propaganda script fed to the public at large…”

Wow, that is a revelation to me, I stand corrected, but why did you not list material from that frontline propaganda script fed to the public at large or at least few snippets of, since I am being educated? I at least provided not one link but many links to back my argument so it would have been fairly easy for you to point out error in my argument, and I am sorry just saying it does not prove it.

Bozidar: “…assume that the military aggression would not have taken place if the public opinion was on Serbia's side is same as saying the Wolfe would not have eaten the lamb had it not been drinking downstream…”

Just like there is infinitely number of solutions to certain mathematical problems so there are also to the problem faced by Yugoslavia starting in 1982 and culminating in 1990-91, 1999-2006, cont. There wasn’t anything resembling organized response to the attack on Yugoslavia on economical front as well as political front thus we will never know what the results would have been if they were organized and a resistance to those attacks were applied. Also unfortunately, since the leadership of Yugoslavia beloved the outcome of the fairy tale wolf and the lamb, in which the lamb was thirsty and while drinking downstream, was eaten by the wolf, if they only knew that it was just a fairy tale; the outcome would have been much, much different, I am sure of that.

The “…we had no chance whatsoever, from before the get-go.” I am sorry but that is a defeatist stance, I do not agree with it, nor do I accept it. I am very sure that the Yugoslavian leadership could have negotiated surrender, if they knew they had no chance from the get-go as you suggest.

Serbian Prince Lazar had a choice too, surrender, and you will have you earthly kingdom which will last but a life time, or make a stand (take a chance) and perish, and you will have the heavenly kingdom which lasts forever. We all know what choice not only Prince Lazar had made, but also his army.

Second, the war of public opinion was lost on all fronts, and could have prevented majority of the issues related to dismembering of Yugoslavia, and Serbia today. Rudder Fin was just icing on the cake and it happened on 12 August 1991 well before any military actions took place. I am also well aware of the mainstream media sources seemed to have known perfectly well what exactly is going on in the region, and they should since they initiated economical policies against target countries. The U.S, and NATO was not ready to get involved militarily on the ground but were emboldened by lack of resistance on the part of Yugoslavia, and Serbia as well latter on. When they seen Slovenia resistance against the 4th largest army, disorganized, unarmed fighting without bullets, infiltrated by traitors, NATO, U.S. fueled Croatia secessionist to take more decisive action against Yugoslavian forces and they did, and the rest of the dominos fell. Sure we made Croatians pay in few places like Vukovar, but we had Zagreb for the taking as well as their complete leadership, but once again indecisions by Serbian leadership were decisive in the failure, we won the battle we lost the war.

The Rational Destruction of Yugoslavia and Diana Johnstone on the Balkan Wars, and Seeing Yugoslavia through a dark glass

But there are consequences of U.S. reckless foreign policy of the early 1990’s. Here are just a few snippets from Kosovo and Its Impact on U.S. Foreign Policy:

[…]
U.S. foreign policy toward Kosovo, which culminated in military intervention in 1999, was a continuation of the policy Washington had pursued in Bosnia and Croatia in 1995. Each of the three wars contributed to a profound transformation in U.S. foreign policy. In Washington’s eyes, the end of the Cold War meant a transition from a bipolar world, which functioned within a set of political, military, and legal restraints, to a unipolar one. The U.S. government was now the world’s hyperpower, without rival or limitation. For Washington, the Yugoslav wars provided an opportunity to demonstrate this to the rest of the world, thereby accomplishing several key objectives.

First, Washington set out to demonize the Serbs in order to discredit and suppress not just Serbian ethnicity but any manifestation of ethnic nationalism, since such nationalism undermines the legitimacy of the dominant ideology of the virtues of multiethnic states and transnational corporations.

Second, U.S. policymakers sought to dismember an inconvenient state—in this case, one supported by Russia, thereby establishing a precedent. Later, that precedent would be applied to the union of Serbia and Montenegro, then Serbia, and, perhaps, even to Iran. In so doing, Washington hoped to weaken and isolate Russia, both internationally and in Europe.

[…]It also established another precedent, in promoting ethnic cleansing by proxy. The Clinton administration covertly armed, trained, supported, and advised the government of Croatia for the August 1995 military offensive known as Operation Storm. Though it was aimed at the secessionist Republic of Serbian Krajina, it resulted in the expulsion of an estimated 300,000 Serbs from Croatia. According to the U.N. High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR), after ten years, the Serbs still have not been permitted to return to Croatia. The precedent was repeated in 1999 when the Red Cross reported that the KLA had expelled between 200,000 and 250,000 Serbs from Kosovo.[…]

Here are few more reasons for Yugoslavia’s dissolution, from the article NATO and US Government War Crimes in Yugoslavia written by Michel Chossudovsky points out when and what was imposed, and by who, and why. This is also backed by Power Grab Through Executive Orders.

Yugoslavia's implosion was partially due to US machinations. Despite Belgrade's non-alignment and its extensive trading relations with the European Community and the US, the Reagan administration had targeted the Yugoslav economy in a "Secret Sensitive" 1984 National Security Decision Directive (NSDD 133) entitled "US Policy towards Yugoslavia." A censored version declassified in 1990 elaborated on NSDD 64 on Eastern Europe, issued in 1982. The latter advocated "expanded efforts to promote a 'quiet revolution' to overthrow Communist governments and parties," while reintegrating the countries of Eastern Europe into a market-oriented economy. 12
The US had earlier joined Belgrade's other international creditors in imposing a first round of macroeconomics reform in 1980, shortly before the death of Marshall Tito. That initial round of restructuring set the pattern.

I did not mention EU policy since they are just an extension of U.S. foreign policy.

I don't see this as an argument, heavens forbid. I read your postings with interest and admiration. To me this is just an exchange of views and opinions and I'm grateful for the opportunity, or as you have so aptly put it; we are sharing and learning.

We cannot own the truth we can only endeavour to be its devotees. The truth is the property of GOD - the Most High Creator and as such is not subject to alteration, corruption or denial.

We have very different perceptions of the causes that resulted in bloodbath in former Yugoslavia and what should have or should not have been done. On the broader spectrum however, our differences are not as great. The analogy of the lamb and the wolf was for metaphorical purpose only and did not in any way imply that the, then, Serbian Government used it as a guideline in its defense of the Serbian territory. I fail to see how the assessment of the situation a decade ago can now be characterized as defeatist.

It stands to reason that the fourth largest army in Europe would have to be weakened from within before being engaged in the long planned military confrontation. Especially if the greater chunk of that army happens to be Serbs who have a history of courage and military valor. As it turned out it was the battlefield where the Serbs proved to be hard to crack, the media war was much easier for the West because they controlled every aspect of the media spectrum. The home grown traitors Croats, Slovenes, Bosnian Muslims and the Albanians were all invaluable tools in West's desire to conquer Balkans. Like in previous wars the scenario was replayed with the same cast. Incidentally, they were just as successful in previous wars in gaining their independence, or nearly so. The same parties had an immense success in winning Hitler's mind and convincing the AXIS powers that Serbs are the culprits. The history reapeats itself.

As for:

Bozidar: “…you have dwelled so much on the material that was in fact the frontline propaganda script fed to the public at large…”

Alfred E. Newman: "Wow, that is a revelation to me, I stand corrected, but why did you not list material from that frontline propaganda script fed to the public at large or at least few snippets of, since I am being educated? I at least provided not one link but many links to back my argument so it would have been fairly easy for you to point out error in my argument, and I am sorry just saying it does not prove it."

Yes! Indeed! You have provided the links! I didn't think that most of them were relevant to the topic but they were there gravitating around the same content as the one used in propaganda war against the Serbs. There was no need to put up any new links you had them all there.

Actaully, it wasn't my intention to educate you or anyone else, I merely expressed my surprise. I noticed that some of my reasoning you have translated into sarcasm which is regrettable since the dialogue is unfolding in a friendly environment no animosities are called for.

Bozidar: I don't see this as an argument, heavens forbid. I read your postings with interest and admiration.

I feel the same way about all the posters and posts; to me this is a learning experience, seeing how other Serbs see the issues facing Serbia and Serbian people, verses how I see them, and how my opinions are perceived by other Serbs. I am actually thankful for this opportunity.

Bozidar: It stands to reason that the fourth largest army in Europe would have to be weakened from within before being engaged in the long planned military confrontation

Once the ranks of the military were cleansed from the traitors, and we know who they were, Serbian and Montenegro did quite well against the greatest military power on earth (see my previous post). But you see you proved my point again; if and when the Serb military is organized, the results are always positive ones aren’t they Bozidar?

Bozidar: I fail to see how the assessment of the situation a decade ago can now be characterized as defeatist.

By suggesting that we had no chance from the get-go implies (forgone conclusion) defeatism, and surrender, and that we were better off not trying to fight, since it was all lost anyways. My point here was to show that Serbs had to at least try to organize in a logical manner, before things got out of control (before Tito’s death), unfortunately the leadership at the time was indecisive, and hesitant, and Serbs paid for it.

Bozidar: “The same parties had an immense success in winning Hitler's mind and convincing the AXIS powers that Serbs are the culprits. The history reapeats itself.”

Proves my point again, the same parties had success do to the fact that they at least mounted an attempt to achieve their goals, to win the mind and hearts of the occupying forces for their own benefit. On the other hand by the time Serbs tried to use diplomacy it was all but too late, shame of it all the Serbs failed to learn from two previous mistakes, that was also my point, they had the opportunity to organize before Tito’s death and prevent what happened in WWI, WWII , and in the war of secession. You know what they say “fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me”, unfortunately the Serbs got fooled three times by almost the same foes. Sure the same ethnic groups had success, because they organized faster to achieve common goal and desired result. History repeats itself, because Serbs failed to learn from history, many Serbian writers predicted this outcome after WWI finished, so we had ample warning of things to come, but we failed to take advantage.

I provided plenty of links since every article has some truth to it, to dismissing the whole article based on few discrepancies is not justifiable in my mind. I had to filter trough the fluff and get the gist of the various articles on Yugoslavia, since there are no perfectly written articles describing what happened in Yugoslavia.

But some times you learn more from the enemy’s honesty then you will from any other source, case in point on 9 December 2006 on prime time Croatian Television, in which the current president of Croatia, Stjepan Mesic, is shown addressing a crowd of Australian-Croatians in the early 1990s, saying: The Croatian Government’s Holocaust-Denying Exhibition at the Jasenovac Death Camp tells the truth, probably the only time he told the truth.

“‘You see, in the Second World War, the Croats won twice and we have no reason to apologise to anyone. What they ask of the Croats the whole time,’ Go kneel in Jasenovac, kneel here...’ We don’t have to kneel in front of anyone for anything! We won twice and all the others only once. We won on 10 April when the Axis Powers recognized Croatia as a state and we won because we sat after the war, again with the winners, at the winning table.’”

(A Windows Media Video of Mesic’s speech in the original Serbo-Croatian can be viewed at http://emperor.vwh.net/croatia/MesicVideo.wmv.

Those are some sobering facts; they managed to turn negatives into positives, all at the expense of the Serbs. Even today our leadership is confused on how to deal with Croatia, Bosnia, and Kosovo; they have to be unified, and decisive in what ever action they take in the future, they are not.

What I was trying to say in my response to the original post “Albanian Mafia and Western Corruption” that given the opportunity, the ethnic Albanians as well as other ethnic groups from the former Yugoslavia, took every advantage presented to them for their benefit, while Serbs did not. The Serbs were divided in many political camps, and thus very ineffective, there isn’t anything wrong in stating the truth, as long as you learn from it.

The Albanian mafia which is replacing Italian mafia on global scale used its resources to arm the Kosovo Albanians or KLA terrorists; sure they had plenty of help from the west, but were mostly ineffective in the beginning of the conflict, and thus the west decided not to use land forces. While the Serbs had financial resources as well, they failed to utilize them in a timely fashion in an optimal way for maximum benefit. Serbia’s failure to protect its territory as well as people did not have anything to do with the secret directive to destroy Yugoslavia, why? Because we had the means to oppose any military actions, but we failed to clean the ranks in a timely fashion and take decisive action to contain the secessionist leadership.

Bozidar: “…I didn't think that most of them were relevant to the topic…”

Exactly, and that is why we agree to disagree, since I find all my links worthy and full of information, but one need to use intuitive thought to filter that which could be deemed as propaganda, and use that which is not propaganda. We are all adults here and no one needs to spoon feed anyone else.

Bozidar: “…I noticed that some of my reasoning you have translated into sarcasm which is regrettable…

Yes, indeed it was, but you see when I argued I did not use little cuddly fairy tales to discredit anything you said, to me that was very derogatory, I am not the enemy, and I am not a child and thus I responded to your sarcasm with sarcasm. I am not offended by your response, and please do not take my response as an insult.

Once again my responses to the original post “Albanian Mafia and Western Corruption”; with which I fully agreed with, but I decided to add the fact that Serbs had finances as well as intelligence and could have mounted a better offense, then the one that was offered on all fronts. One must recognize errors of Serbian leadership, so that those errors are not repeated in the future. How many times in one century do Serbs need to die needlessly in order to achieve peace and prosperity? How many times have the Serbs won all the battles, and then lost the war? Too many times to be a coincidence, we need to stop blaming the enemy and start blaming our selves, and then we need to do something positive about it.

In actual fact there were numerous attempts to cleanse the ranks but were deemed to be counter-productive. The multi ethnic make up of the political and military cadre in former Yugoslavia meant that the innocent could become victims of the purge. Even the attempt to prevent Stipe Mesic from becoming the president of Yugoslavia brought an avalanche of protests despite the fact that he openly said he will be Yugoslavia's last president. In normal circumstances he would have been charged with treason yet Serbs found themselves in a check-mate position because of the meddling and encouragement of the West and simply had to allow the process to proceed.

On the media side of things Serbs had taken the initiative and at first got the cooperation of the BBC and major American media centres. The event of the Yugoslav soldier of Serbian extraction being strangled by the Croat Ustashi hordes in Split was broadcast by the BBC and was picked up by many major papers. It all started on the right footing for the Serbs who passed on to the world media video footage of Croatians preparing for war well in advance and the terrorist activity on Kosovo, before there were even the rumours of Yugoslavia breaking up. There was no letting off in momentum on Serbias part and the foreign correspondents enjoyed unrestricted freedom in Serbia.

Then, suddenly, there was a 180 degree turnaround in the West. Foreign-correspondents, that once reported events as they happened, begun to write distorted reports painting the Serbs in black. All the achievements the Serbs had made became forgotten and swept under the carpet, the friend turned into a foe and the murderers were treated as victims. That was when Serbia responded to the Western reporters reciprocally and asked many of them to leave, only the proven fair reporting personnel was allowed to stay and they were very few.

Serbia attempted to get its message across to the western population but found her self staring at blank faces and no sign of cooperation. No PR firm would take Serbia's case no newspaper would publish the Serbian version of the conflict. I remember the incident when the Serbian ambassador to Washington was to appear on live TV Program alongside visiting Bosnia's (I know his name well but can't think of it right now) high ranking official, who was increasing the numbers of Muslim women allegedly raped and Muslim babies killed by the Serbs, by several thousand each time he opened his mouth. Once the big shot learned that he will be confronted on live TV show by Serbia's Ambassador he panicked and threatened not to attend unless the Serb is prevented from participating. The Show management obliged and told the Serb not to appear. On the media side Serbia was done despite all its attempts to counter the injustice, "we had no chance from the get-go" does not imply the forgone conclusion but rather the down to earth assessment with the benefit of the hind sight. Defeatism, on the other hand, is surrender without any struggle and embracing the assailant as the saviour. That, incidentally, was done by all the traitors who are now credited with amazing successes just because they proved to be genuine sycophants.

This is where our perceptions stand on two opposite banks of the Grand Canyon. There is no way I could come to terms with the notion that those same traitors were in fact wise tacticians by embracing the aggressive powers in WWI and WWII and now on the brink of WWIII. Serbs are not the only ones enmeshed in the repetitious cycle of history, the whole humanity is. I also differ on the point of who was fooled more than once, the Serbs who stand in dignity and glory of being on the side justice or the bloodthirsty sycophants who jump at the first chance to commit another beastly deed. It's not that Serbs failed to learn from history it's that this humanity in transition is knotted into political, ideological, religious and materialistically driven greed by which it was catapulted onto a dangerous trajectory at an ever increasing speed from which no nation can escape.

The analogy of the wolf and the lamb was not sarcastic nor was it intended to be. In the context it was used it could not possibly even be construed to be sarcastic. Some metaphor has to be employed to stress the similarity and significance of events. Many of such analogies refer to the fables of old written by the sages and inspired people to point the way for future generations.
Similarly, there is no way I would take any form of response as an offense even if, and this is not the case here, my interlocutor openly attacks me with insults. No two individuals think exactly the same way some differences are to be expected. The level of those differences is dependent on many factors and providing that mutual acceptance and consideration is maintained no harm is done.

Regards

I must admit I'm not following this as closely as I should, but it was me, not Bozidar, that said we had no chance from the get-go. Defeatist or not, this is exactly what I think about the media war that Serbia supposedly lost. I do not think we lost it, I believe we were entirely prevented from fighting it. Just like the NATO bombardment from above the clouds, where Serbs (in both Serbia and Montenegro) were reduced to sitting ducks, the media bombardment was made equally impossible to confront and fight: it was simply taken out of our reach.

Serbs didn't have to invent a reality, they had solid facts that would have instantly dismantled all the lies and figments of imagination provided by the Croat/Muslim-hired PR companies, and it is not for the lack of trying that they were completely unsuccessful. Simply put, no one in the West wanted to publish anything coming from the Serbs or non-Serbs who could see through the lies, nothing that would jeopardize the tangled web they were weaving.

When Clinton declared razing of the Serbian TV station a just move and Serbian TV "a legitimate target", since "it was spreading propaganda" what did he mean exactly? Serbian TV was bombed because the facts it was releasing into the ether started to reach outside Serbia's borders. Right around the same time, no Canadian paper wanted to take substantial sum of money collected by the Serbian diaspora for a three-word ad that would say "Stop the bombing". Not even for the money - they didn't want Serbian money and they definitely didn't want Serbian side of the story in Croatia, Bosnia or Kosovo-Metohija. All they wanted were Serbian scalps and justification for their government policies. The other sides provided that aplenty. That is why they were "successful" and we were "unsuccessful".

P.S. I'll never forget a frail old American WWII veteran who traveled from States only to appear on Toronto's televised "town house" or something like that, a two-hour special about NATO's war against Serbia. He got up at some point from the audience and started to tell good things about the Serbs, in a still strong, soldier's voice, about Serbs the allies, Serbs American pilot rescuers, Serbs the brave, only to be unceremoniously cut off in the mid-sentence and basically told to shut up and sit down by the sleazy perfumed TV anchor who could've been the old soldier's grandson. So much for the climate in which the "discussions" were held at the time when Serbs were entirely prevented from entering such places to begin with.

There are, unfortunately, dozens of similar stories I could tell that illustrate the position we were in, from which it was really impossible to counter the media assault.